Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread

[redrum]

@wirkey @Hepps Fixed missing image. Please delete and redownload the map to see if its resolved.

@Hepps Initially want to try with just the station images on the map to try to minimize number of units given the small territories. If players have trouble determining where stations are then I'll look to add in an actual unit image for them.

I would like to do some unit image overhaul and I'm at your mercy since I have no ability to do it myself

For the 5 you posted so far, definite yes to light artillery, heavy artillery, armor, and aa gun (as you noticed at least making the direction units face consistent would be good). I like the train more than the existing one but want to keep with the style of units having their nation's color built in. So if you think it could be shaded red then I'd probably use it instead of the existing one.

[mattbarnes]

@cernel I have to agree with you about the mech units. On the one hand it seems wrong to depart from Puli’s vision but on the other it does seem historically inaccurate.

In tanks, the Chinese vs Japanese were around 200 v 1000. Given the huge scale in geography and manpower this is a tiny number. If each unit is a division then China should start with about 80 infantry and 1 armoured. China had more than 10,000 men per tank!

Should the map have fewer mech units and increase their cost?

Slowing the troop movements would also help to add emphasis to the railways.

Artillery was crucial but again less numerous than the game implies. Maybe we should equate the game’s Light Artillery to really being mortars, which could explain their numbers, although I don’t understand why they move at speed 2, unless they have some speedy trucks to carry them? Should heavy artillery also cost more?

The planes were also around 200 v 1000 so maybe are represented almost fairly although the Japanese may have slightly too many in the game. Maybe it should be 2 vs 10 and make them cost a bit more?

[Cernel]

@mattbarnes said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

China had more than 10,000 men per tank!

Yep, but let's not forget that WWII armies were more like WWI armies with a minor addition of the new mech stuff, not like today, where everything is mechanized. For example, also the Germans had about 1,000 men per armour, and 80% of the army was horse powered. The Japanese were less armoured/mechanized than the Germans, albeit, of course, more than the Chinese.

Yeah, I guess that pulicat made the Japs so high tech to feature the material superiority with respect to the Chinese, but to me it feels that has been pushed too far, since, while the Japanese had surely much more hardware than the Chinese, they were mainly an infantry army with very minor and limited mechanization, relying mainly on infantry charges and close combat.
Now, this would need research, like knowing how much of the war expenditures went to the infantry and to the rest, then having the TUV accordingly (I assume upkeep costs should be counted in the TUV, since there is no upkeep, as of course infantry costs are mainly upkeep), which I don't know, but I really think that would end up with a lot of infantry, few artillery, and very few armours and general mech.

Practically, in China, excluding Manchuria, at start game the Japanese have these land units:
187 TUV of infantry/elite (actually, 46 elite and 1 infantry)
700 TUV of artillery
360 TUV of armoured/mechanized units
That means that only about 15% of land TUV is in infantry.

I don't know the actual data, but, for what I know of the Japanese army, that is not what I would expect. Then, again, I don't have specific data; so just saying I'm surprised to see the Japanese so heavily equipped.
I mean that when I'm opening a 1937 China map I would be waiting to see the fight between two mostly infantry armies (of course the Japanese with some stuff and the Chinese with almost nothing else but some cavalry).
On the other hand, I agree with the Japanese being elite infantry.
Another thing is that in China the Japanese used gas, tho I'm not saying this needs to be represented.

[redrum]

@cernel @mattbarnes Yeah, I think Pulicat tried to give the Japanese more starting advanced units so they would run out of infantry fodder and need to focus on trains for logistics of bringing them to the front. Its definitely a bit extreme in terms of infantry vs artillery/mech. I would like to make the start a bit closer to what is was historically but in the end care more about gameplay.

My thought is play some games as it sits now and see how the map plays. Then try some adjustments. I'd like to rework the unit set some to make more variety but also make advanced and fast units more expensive.

Either of you interested in starting a PBF/PBEM game?

[Cernel]

@mattbarnes said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

Artillery was crucial but again less numerous than the game implies. Maybe we should equate the game’s Light Artillery to really being mortars, which could explain their numbers, although I don’t understand why they move at speed 2, unless they have some speedy trucks to carry them? Should heavy artillery also cost more?

The Japanese were actually quite famous for and fairly well equipped with portable grenade launchers, mainly the:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_89_grenade_discharger
but I'm assuming that is comprised in the elite units, not represented by the artillery ones. I don't know if light mortars or even grenade launchers should be represented as units, as they are really organic of the infantry (ok, yes, the artillery is too, but you get what I mean), and I don't have a clear idea about how that should be eventually done, but they are surely a substitute for artillery (if you have a lot grenade launchers, that covers much of what you need the artillery for).

[redrum]

Here's the best data I've seen:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combatants_of_the_Second_Sino-Japanese_War#Forces_involved

[Cernel]

What do you think about the issue of those invisible units like "ruralproduction" and "station"?

The issue is that they take 1 (sometimes precious) placement spot, and, on top of that, they impede clicking on the territory too, then, select any units, as you may easily be clicking on the invisible unit, instead, especially in the most crowded territories. Moreover, you may get a tooltip telling the story of a unit you cannot see, which is dumb.

Would you be in favour of any of these solutions:

1. Adding an option (in the skin) for hiding specific units.
2. Assure the invisible unit is first in placement and having the first place of such territories outside view (coordinate 2244,2248).
3. Having them as ownership roundels, instead of invisible (at least this way you don't keep clicking on them while you want to click on the territory, and in general it makes sense ownership being displayed not only by colour, and it may be of help to people with very acute issues of colour blindness). In this case, the same should be added underneath the factory image, to keep consistency, so that those territories don't lack the roundel.

Do you plan to do number 1 and, if not, would you be against number 2 (which is a hack), or how about number 3 (surely less hacky then having them invisible)?

Referring feature request:
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/977/invisible-units

p.s.: Also, I don't think invisible units look nice in the territory tab.

Also, I definitely suggest removing the communist flag. There is no capital, so there should not be a capital flag. Users can survive not seeing the sickle and hammer.

[Cernel]

@redrum I think the heavy_cavalry unit of Manchukwo looks very bad. It is the only unit I consider being not decent and I feel it is degrading for the map. I'm not sure if this player actually needs heavy_cavalry, so I would cut it from the game anyways.

[redrum]

@cernel Responded in the invisible unit thread.

I've recruited @Hepps to help clean up the unit images a bit.

[Cernel]

@redrum said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

I've recruited @Hepps to help clean up the unit images a bit.

Ok, so, I don't think most needs to be redone necessarily (even tho most is not really correct); just giving some limited additional considerations.

Since most units are ripped off from different players of other games, pretty much most is wrong, but I think that's ok (this doesn't need to be a perfect map), as long as it feels fairly generic, or just anachronistic. The only two other things I would suggest changing (beside the heavy_cavalry) are:

• The nationalist elite looks like an Italian bersaglieri.
• The communist guerrilla looks like an Italian bersaglieri.

I think the Chinese can have only conscript and infantry, not elite, since anyways their elite was subpar to the japanese infantry, just not as much as the standard ones (of course, here pulicat might argue I'm being unfair to the Chinese, and I'm not actually certain). In this case, I would keep the current conscrip image, while using a german soldier for the infantry one (removing the elite from the game for the Chinese).

For the nationalist elite, if it stays, I would swap it with a german infantry, since the best units of the nationalists were german equipped.

On the other hand, I don't have an idea about how your average communist guerrilla should better look like.

Also, I would remove from the game the light_infantry of Manchukwo, or, since it moves 2, maybe it should not be as cheap as a conscript, tho I'm not sure what that might represent (no idea if the Manchukwo had some special bersaglieri of foot-cavalry kind of infantry units; in general, they were very unimportant, except maybe for having a fairly good cavalry).

[Cernel]

@redrum @Hepps So, anyways, I just made (modified) two new units for the Nationalists, so they are not Italian Nationalists:
infantry:

elite:

Take them or do something else, if you prefer.

Personally, I don't think that graphically there is much left to be done. I think only the heavy_cavalry and guerrilla (Italian bersaglieri running all over China) need redo. Rest is good/bearable, probably not worth the time to do much about it. At most I would say the commando, since it is quite off the rest, but I think it's decent.

Anyways, I don't intend to propose other stuff.

Actually, I think one of the biggest problems (for me) of this map (as per pulicat prefence) is that everything is so smaaallllll (and still a fair bit of overflow, even with almost 24 pixels units).
So I've made this mapskin that it is twice the dimension of the map and units at 0.8333.

https://github.com/Cernelius/red_sun_over_china-big_skin/archive/master.zip

If that's fine with the current map owner , I'll make a request for adding this map skin to the repo once the units folder and whatever appears to be stable (I'll paste it into this skin).

p.s.: Why 3 shells for the heavy artillery? Since it's the 2nd level of artillery, I'd put 2. Anyways, I think these Communist artilleries are very distincive and can make without icons.

[Hepps]

@cernel Yeah almost everything you discussed was really all we were planning on looking at. It was meant to just clean it up not really over haul the entire thing.

I agree that the Manchuko cavalry is needing to be either changed or at the very least cleaned up to look similar to all the other units.

The Inf design looks good. Much improved.

The Artillery shells were just lifted from @Frostion IW map as a way to quickly substitute the Hvy Bomber icons @pulicat had used originally used.

[Hepps]

@redrum Here is a rendering of the train with the Russian hue added. Is this what you were looking for?

[redrum]

@Cernel Agree with most of your thoughts around units and I'll take a look at the 2 you posted. You are welcome to create a skin. I agree that territories are too small but your mapskin version is very pixelated.

@Hepps Trains image looks great. If you can post it in each nation's hue then I'll definitely add them in.

[Hepps]

@redrum I'll think about it.

[Cernel]

@redrum said in Red Sun Over China (RSOC) - Official Thread:

@Cernel Agree with most of your thoughts around units and I'll take a look at the 2 you posted. You are welcome to create a skin. I agree that territories are too small but your mapskin version is very pixelated.

Yes, I believe that's inevitable when you enlarge an image. I don't plan on making an actual new relief for this map, so assuming that means better not having this as a map skin in the repository (wasn't proposing it as original), then nevermind.

[Cernel]

@redrum A problem that I'm sure you'll perceive now that you are playing this map is that the program doesn't try alternative routes when the shortest one is blocked by a canal. This is particularly relevant here, with the many land canals, and it is going to be a substantial annoyance when making moves with the air units, as they will try to go through the trains only connections, probably seldom requiring the use of ctrl for them.
This would be a much bigger problem if you would make, for example, a game in which you have portals teletransporting stuff very far away, as those would really muck down a lot of stuff that can't use them.

[redrum]

@cernel Yeah, one of the first things I noticed. Essentially route finding needs to consider if canals aren't passable by the selected units. Otherwise route finding tries to use the city to city connections and players have to use waypoints a lot. This is very similar to the issue with mountains not being passable on BFA that I just fixed.

[mattbarnes]

@redrum do I want a test game? Yes, in theory. But time is an issue. I’m still playing the old map with my father in law, which absorbs what little leisure time I have. Let me see if I get a free evening and if so I’ll have a go at a PBEM and send it to you.

PS instead of light artillery, why not rename them as “generals”? They enhance infantry attacks, right? Wouldn’t need to change the stats as gameplay at all just the label and icon. Would just get us away from the non-historical surplus of artillery.

And the other Japanese units could maybe be relabelled:
Armoured cars -> mobile infantry or cavalry
Mech infantry -> light infantry
Heavy artillery -> artillery
Tanks -> tankettes

[Cernel]

@mattbarnes It's really hard to guess what those light artilleries that are faster than infantries are representing. My only guess is "horse artillery", but so many? I wouldn't go for making them generals.