Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread

[Cernel]

@LaFayette said in Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread:

@Frostion are we talking the latest release, or latest pre-release?

Yes, I see the same when I try this out. I can’t explain, but it seems like an air transported unit cannot enter battle firing it own targeted attacks. @Cernel and @LaFayette perhaps you can explain if this is the way it should be?

@Trevan has become the new resident expert on how that would work : ) Can you answer this one after having dug into the code around this recently?

Maybe @Panther can give an interpretation here, but I'm fairly positive that air transported units not being able to use their AA fire is completely consistent with every rules set. AA fire certainly happens before the air transported units cease to be cargo, since they are automatically destroyed if the air transport is lost because of AA fire. Since every AA fire is considered to be simultaneous, air transported units cannot make AA fire, on the first round of combat, as in doing so they would actually either:

• do it after the other AA fire (and only as long as the trasport is not downed), which should not happen, or
• do it while they are cargo, which should be impossible.

In my opinion, if you want air transported units being able to make AA fire, you should make a feature request about a property (or something) that changes the rules as to say that air transported units cease to be cargo before the AA fire step (so they can be destroyed by AA fire only if the AA fire is targeting them) (so that you would assume that the air transported units jumped out of the air transport before the AA fire happens) or a feature request about a property (or something) about having two or more levels of AA fire, happening sequentially (for example, in the case of transport planes dropping paratroopers, you can have first the (heavy) AA fire to destroy the planes (before the paratroopers can jump out) and, then, the (light) AA fire to kill the paratroopers while they are parachuting).

Realistically, most paratroopers should not be lost when the transport plane is lost. There is usually plenty of time for them to jump out while the plane is on its death dive and, besides, it is normal even for the crew to parachute once the plane appears to be lost, so I really don't know why to have this rule, but the rules are what they are. On the other hand, it can also easily happen that crew members and passengers are killed in the plane without the plane being lost or even seriously damaged (just some small holes in the fuselage).

A more involved feature would be generally allowing cargo to take part in combat while still being cargo (this would make a lot of sense for ships during the age-of-sails and before, when the men transported by the ships would fight in the naval battles, also by boarding and capturing other ships).

However, you can still give air transported units "first strike", instead of AA fire. In theory, air transported units should be able to make "first strike" in v3 or later rulesets (as in v3 "first strike" happens after AA fire, while in v2 it happens at the same time as AA fire) (I said in theory, because I don't believe TripleA supports this difference between v2 and v3, but I'm not sure).

AFAIK air transported units behave as carge during AA, and then they join the battle if their air transport is not destroyed during AA.

Yep. Paratroopers are cargo when the AA fire happens (thus cannot do anything and are destroyed if the unit they are cargo of is destroyed) and cease being cargo only after the AA fire step is over, so they are too late to take part in it. However, they should be able to make AA fire from the second round of combat onwards if the AA fire is set to last for more than 1 round of combat.

So I would confirm what @Trevan said:

Paratroopers don't land until after the AA/Targeted round. They don't fire until after they land and so they don't get their first Targeted fire until the second round.

---

Related to this, @Panther: What do you think it should happen if there is an "aaGun" unit that is able to make AA fire against "tank" (land) units and, in doing so, kills a tank that is land transporting one infantry unit. Should the infantry be lost at the same time or should it be unaffected? Anyone knows or tested how this actually works in the program?

I think cases like this make highly advisable to have one property or one option to allow the mapmakers to settle the matter, individually.

[Trevan]

@Cernel said in Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread:

Related to this, @Panther: What do you think it should happen if there is an "aaGun" unit that is able to make AA fire against "tank" (land) units and, in doing so, kills a tank that is land transporting one infantry unit. Should the infantry be lost at the same time or should it be unaffected? Anyone knows or tested how this actually works in the program?

I don't recall seeing anything in the code that differentiates land transport from air transport. So, both land and air transport would be affected by the same code and should have the same outcome. But there might be a flag that I've missed that differentiates them.

[beelee]

Yea good point by Cernel. I'd say the land unit shouldn't necessarily die if transported by a land unit. Air unit should probably be dust. If you're gonna make an option tho, might as well make it as flexible as possible, depending on labor.

[Frostion]

I would really like options to customize behaviour.
I can imagine instances where it would be nice to have the carried units also fire AA in the first round. Like if a beast rider with ranged weapons or magic attack could attack from the beast, or if a vessel carrying a "mod"-unit or "component"-unit in a "slot" could be allowed to attack, like a "defense turret" or "missile module".

A flexible system could also distinguish between Land, Air and Sea transports and their ability to let their "cargo" fire.

[Panther]

@Cernel said in Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread:

Related to this, @Panther: What do you think it should happen if there is an "aaGun" unit that is able to make AA fire against "tank" (land) units and, in doing so, kills a tank that is land transporting one infantry unit. Should the infantry be lost at the same time or should it be unaffected?

IMHO by default the transported unit should be destroyed together with the transporting unit. There should be a difference between the situation when a unit attacks together with another (two active units) and the situation when a unit transports another (one active, one passive unit).

[ff03k64]

@Frostion said in Warcraft: War Heroes - Official Thread:

@ff03k64 said: “Unless i am not reading the map right, i can't tell how many hp a hero has.”
Heroes have standard engine generated tooltips, and you can see their HPs there (3 HP). Hero may get extras HP via items or levels, and the new HP max should also be in the normal tooltips. Heroes heal 1 HP per turn, normally. This is also stated in the tooltips.

I mean if they have 4 hp normally, i don't think i can tell if they have 1 or 3 left if they are damaged. Been a while now though, so i can't remember exactly what it was like.

Edit: I figured it out, there is a 2 that shows up if they have lost more than one HP.

[Mora]

Is there an option to play this with 1.9?

[TheDog]

@Mora
I dont think so it has xml code for v2+

Why do want to use 1.9 ?

[ff03k64]

@Mora I would say there is no reason you can't try it. Worse that happens is it doesn't run, or some triggers don't work, at which point you can't.

You would just have to change the minimum triplea version in the xml to try it and see what happens. I do have the feeling that he used newer stuff though.

[Mora]

It's ok. I've just read that the factory bug is fixed in the latest prerelease.

[ff03k64]

@Mora I would guess that he uses stuff that is new since 1.9 as well anyway.

[Mora]

I am playing vs. AI for more than 20 turns. Started as Troll. The map is quite challenging, because I learned relatively late that Horde factions are stacking units in capitals. Later I took over the bulls and orcs. So right now, I am fighting a war of survival against Gnomes, Humans and Elves on western continent. Right now it seems that Undead AI is playing acceptably good. So I am keeping it under Hard AI.
To my opinion, two biggest issues atm are 'air routes' and 'munitions usage' by AI. From what I can see, this two problems are close to non-solvable, because they exist for a long time now.
Until they are solved, maybe it would be an idea to make a separate experimental map where this two problems would be worked around: no air routes and no suicide munitions. I expect some other artillery stats would have to be changed to compensate for that, but as discussed earlier, this bombardment mechanic is broken for PvP anyway, so it would need to be worked on anyhow. In addition, all spells would have to be replaced with other hero skills. Preferably passive ones.
I am suggesting all this because

1. I think this map has a potential to become a very good (maybe the best in Triplea) and challenging P vs. AI map.
2. I think there isn't much chance that the same map, however it would look in the end, would be equally good for both PvP and Pvs.AI.
   Not knowing the system, of course I can't say how much work would this require. Maybe this should be taken just as a thought.
   Thanks Frostion for great work!

[Mora]

I quit playing after 30 turns. AI behaves so irrational that I decided not to waste any more of my time. Looks like the reason being this 'air routes' issue. Instead of capturing my Orc stronghold in two turns, the Elves keep hiding behind the mountain ridge. They have overwhelming superiority. Probably AI has calculated that the route across the mountain is closer. This really has to be solved for AI play to be satisfactory. Sooner or later, the game would end up in something similar to this stalemate.
The other issue I've found which is spoiling the game for me is heroes not actually losing anything when they die. Not even a level, not even an item. Their strength is almost entirely based on luck. If they are able to obtain the strongest objects, they become unbeatable or at least too strong. Even when they die they are re-spawned for just 10EXP somewhere else with all their experience and objects. I see a lot of reasons to just throw them into suicide missions and do a lot unproportional damage, or just bind in place whole armies with this movement restriction spell. There should be some higher cost to pay for hero dying so that one would have reason to keep them alive.

[ff03k64]

@Mora I would post a save game. And say what version of the map and TripleA engine you are using. That will allow the programers to look at it and see if it is a AI issue, or a map issue, or some combination thereof, or just a bug of some sort.

[Mora]

It's something that has been happening through many turns. Saved game would not explain. Elves have attacked across the bridge from Warsong Lumber Camp to Valormok on the right bank (where the outpost is situated). They were victorius, but instead of pushing south they retreated back across the bridge with the bulk of the forces. They just sit there, together with Humans and Gnomes army. When Orcs (me) amass enough forces in Valormok, they attack again and then retreat back. It happened two times already. looks like they want to take over stronghold, but don't want to use the obvious route.

[ff03k64]

@Mora A saved game most importantly gives the game history. And for me it would let me know what else is in this area. Maybe they think that someone else is too close to their capital? I don't know the map enough to make heads or tails of anything from a single picture. Frostion probably does, but the AI person also probably doesn't.

While I am not a developer, working on a map gives me some extra perspective. My thought is that the devs never complain about too much information. If you give too much info, they might not need it all, but they can get started trying to figure the problem out and ignore what they don't need. They also do this in their free time, so they might not be on for a couple weeks at a time. Then if you have moved on to another map, they don't have to hope that you remember all the details.

[Mora]

Here's saved game file.
autosaveAfterNight-ElvesNonCombatMove.tsvg

[Mora]

Does anybody know whether there's a simple way to just remove all air routes from the map? If it is not too complicated, I could do it myself.
I would really like to play this one again...

[ff03k64]

@Mora you want to make them work for everything? Or nothing?

[Frostion]

@Mora I am glad that you like the map, even though development is very slow at the moment. I totally agree on the issue of the AI stacking units in some territories. As you probably know, it is because that the AI thinks it can traverse a connection when it really can’t. This really ruins the game and I will keep asking the devs for help and hope that they at some point will look into this AI problem.

I do realize that the map distribution of items and nice hero stuff is in no way guaranteed to be even or fair, not in an AI game and not in a Human vs Human game. Even though I would like to keep things as fair a possible I have a hard time figuring out how this can be done. But, I hope, that with the vast amount of items that are available during each play through, all heroes do each get a good portion of the weak, medium and strong items. So maybe this acts as a balancing mechanic … a little.

As you point out, the heroes are strong units. They are actually super strong compared to the normal units. But they are also meant to be this way, so I don’t see it as a problem. They can also revive pretty fast and pretty cheap. This is can be changed, but as I see it, if a player loses his hero in a battle early on, and there was a big penalty for dying or it cost a lot to revive, then that player would be set back A LOT compared to the other players. So I am not really sure how / what to do to change things for the better?

I have had very little time for TripleA lately, but I have managed to do a little update. I have added a new XML in this here new version of the map that will allow you to play without the airways. I cannot guarantee that there are no new issues or missing connections. Please keep an eye out for leveling and item details / issues. Test it out and give some more feedback

I will probably open a GitHub issue in regards to this AI issue. Hopefully a dev will take an interest in it … as this “feature” (connections with unit type restrictions) could potentially be useful on other innovative maps and special situations.

v1.5 to v1.6 changes (downloadable soon):

• All “handover” debuff spells, that are delivered by casting the spell onto the enemy, now get removed by the start of the original casters turn. So Frost, Earthquake, Solar-Fire, Roots and Lunar-Fire will now only remain on the board 1 round or until captured.

• A lot of Hero abilities adjusted in strength for balance.

• All the Heroes now have levels and ability descriptions in the Hero Bar. Abilities are not at all “equal”, but an effort has been done to balance the heroes and their relative power to each other when they reach level 8. This has been done by using the battle calculator, where level 8 Heroes, assisted by a small army, battle other level 8 Heroes, assisted by a small army. This is of course because Heroes often do not fight alone and Heroes often have support abilities.

• Added a temporary XML called “Disabled Airways Version”, so that beta testers may play this map without having the AI stacking units up in territories that have airways / connections that only allow certain units types to pass.