Moving MiniMap to bottom of Action Panel

[Frostion]

What is the motivation behind moving the Minimap down to the buttom right? Why not keep it in the upper right corner and make the tabs clickable drop-down tabs, if this is really wanted? I think there are some serious issues with moving the Minimap. But I will stick to 1 issue (for now), probably the one that I have the most trouble with:

The Minimap is probably the most used part of the screen and the player’s mouse hand/cursor spends a lot of time there. So moving the Minimap to a less optimal location will have a huge impact on the playing experience … particularly in regards to the physical ergonomics of the mouse hand.

My hand is normally placed on the mouse with the wrist bones resting, more or less permanent, on the mouse mat/table, only occasionally being lifted up off the table. I move the mouse around in a way that can be described as a mix of 2 things: 1. inside the palm of my hand, without lifting the hand or moving the arm around + 2. In front of my permanent on-table resting wrist, within the limited movement and reach the hand has.

When I want to navigate to the Minimap during play, I still keep my wrist in place resting on the mat and then I just gently, with my thumb and palm, pres the mouse forward-right/up-right/away from me until the cursor ends up on the Minimap. When done using the Minimap, I move the cursor back to the screen center and do what I got to do (like move units or fine-tune screen location).

The point is, that as of now, this movement of the mouse, back and forth from center screen to Minimap has been smooth and convenient for my mouse hand. No uncomfortable mouse hand twisting, stretch or cramp grip on the mouse. When I imaging the minimap being in the buttom right, moving my cursor back and forth from center of screen to buttom right, I immediately feel that this is NOT an improvement.

Try it yourself.
Move the mouse back and forth from the upper-right to center of screen, quickly and many times …. Then compare to button-right to center quickly and many times.
I am curious if I am the only one that feels this strain on the palm and wrist?

[Hepps]

@Frostion I don't really see a difference as when you move to the edge of the screen one of the 2 directions is always pulling backwards... whether that is on the way to the mini map or on the back from the minimap seems fairly inconsequential. The movements would simply become reversed.

The reason I have suggested moving it was based on conversations I have had with other people as an idea to move as much of the visual information grouped together into one area. That is... having all of the UI related stuff all together in one location. ie. tabs, buttons, minimap, turn info, player info.

But it would be equally effective to have the tabs drop down rather than pop up if moving the mini map proves disagreeable to the community.

[redrum]

FYI, this is fairly related to this discussion: https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/338/possible-game-interface-suggestions

I agree with moving the minimap to the bottom right. I think its more natural there and most other strategy games have it there so easier for players to get used to the TripleA UI.

[LaFayette]

Interesting point regarding range of motion and arcing of the wrist @Frostion
I wonder if someone were left handed if bottom right would be more ideal.

One thing I'm wondering about now though is how to have the stats table to render well. If it's top right, I wonder if that would be too much of a gap and it'll be 'orphaned' in the top right corner.

Also would need to collectively consider where the 'units to place panel' (I hope we can call that something else soon, like 'placements panel') will be rendered.

[Frostion]

@redrum said in Moving MiniMap to bottom of Action Panel:

(...) moving the minimap to the bottom right. I think its more natural there and most other strategy games have it there so easier for players to get used to the TripleA UI.

A majority of the most common games have the minimap in every other corner than bottom right. I would think this is not coincidental, but instead decisions based on game play experience and testing.

Any other corner than bottom right is OK with me, but the upper right still seems to be the most convenient.

Here are mix examples of popular games I can think of and have played: Age of Empire 3, Civilization 6, Company of Heroes, Starcraft 2, Warcraft 3 (The new official “reforged”), World in Conflict, Dota 2, Total Annihilation, Supreme Commander, Warhammer Armageddon, Command & Conquer / Red Alert series.

Even Axis and Allies PC games do NOT have the Minimap in bottom right corner:

[Cernel]

So, the examples that you posted sum as the following numbers:

Top-Right: 4
Bottom-Right: 0
Bottom-Left: 9
Top-Left: 1

I'm surprised you didn't consider the actual Axis & Allies PC game (meaning the third edition, as that one you have shown, instead, is a "spin off" and not purely a strategic game, either, but actually a strategic and tactic one, albeit you can play it as purely strategic, by auto-resolving battles).

I wonder if you left it out on purpose, as that one (or those ones, if we consider Iron Blitz separately) doesn't have a minimap (it has a "world map" mode). That is to say, also not having a minimap is an option. Not like having the minimap is necessary.

I'm personally just fine where the smallMap is now, but, if someone wants to change its position, it may be good opening a poll about it.

[Cernel]

My opinion, bottom-left is the best position for looking at it and top-right is the best position for interacting with it (changing view position fast around the map by clicking on the minimap).

Also, I'm a straight right-handed guy. I wonder how many left-handed we have around here, instead, and if they use the right hand anyways for the mouse or the left one.

[prastle]

@LaFayette I think the translucent background is the key! Moving the minimap is not a big important thing. Top Right = The current position works ok. Thus I don't think you need to create more work. Just my two cents.

[beelee]

@prastle said in Moving MiniMap to bottom of Action Panel:

I think the translucent background is the key

As long as it's optional. I fear it might make me have a flashback lol

Re the mini map. Would the extra work required be worth it to make it configurable by the player ? Same as using flags, font size, etc..

[Hepps]

I am surprised at the sheer volume of responses... I love it when people get excited over such things!!

I will summarize my position on the matter as this...

The location is completely arbitrary to me... left- right- top-bottom... doesn't matter. If someone has some empirical evidence that points to some ergonomic benefit of one over the others then GREAT... go with the science!

The real key is trying to make all movements instinctive... and logical... if you are going to present information... put all of the ones that need player input in the same place! If you need to edit... you go to the same area on the screen as you would to draw up the placed units... or history of moves... or whatever.

By having players know where to get all the tools they need to play the game makes it an easier and more enjoyable experience.

All the other tacit info that is there for the players benefit can be located where ever so long as it is consistent and in fixed locations across games.

[ubernaut]

@Hepps well i do know that adobe puts all of their navigator panels at the top right. i would think if anyone has done research into which corner is best it would probably have been them.

i also know that higher is typically better it terms of attention priority since we tend to scan down with our eyes.

[prastle]

@beelee the translucent would be optional like showing full screen current game

[Captain Crunch]

could be the biggest nerd convo ever but its funny cuz all things should be ergonomic!!

Carpal tunnel 2 lose!

[beelee]

@Captain-Crunch

yea im having trouble following. i had to look up "ergonomic"

[LaFayette]

What are people's thoughts of moving to bottom left?

We would gain more space for unit-scroller, unit move history, and placements panel. Action tabs remaining at top-right solves the problem of stats table vertical alignment.

Biggest downside is perhaps the history panel getting less space. IMO it's probably okay as it does not really need to be full-height.

[ubernaut]

@LaFayette i like that idea left is currently cheap real estate the right side already a bit jammed up even disregarding the map.

[Cernel]

@LaFayette Honestly, not sure what you are planning. You don't have the left/history bar when you are playing, so I'm not sure if that would mean not having the minimap, as well, when you are not in history mode. On the other hand, if the minimap would be integrated in the left bar, like it is now in the right one, this would mean, especially if having wide minimaps, hugely increasing the minimum wideness of the history bar, taking out a lot of board view.

I also don't like the idea of showing the minimap somewhere without it being encompassed by a side bar, as I think the board view should always be rectangular.

[LaFayette]

• I'm not sure if the minimap really needs to move
• There seems to be some compelling reasons to have it not be bottom right.
• It's an open question on how we would place elements exactly.
• I don't think it'd be wise to ever have the minimap be hidden unless the user explicitly does so. I don't think I implied otherwise.

especially if having wide minimaps, hugely increasing the minimum wideness of the history bar, taking out a lot of board view.

It would probably make sense for us to have a max size of the minimap, and potentially a min size as well. A map maker could cause issues today with a minimap that is out of an expected range. I suspect this is just a UI bug that we don't have it, it's very common for programmers to not account for excessively short or excessively long text/images.

We still have options for how to deal with this, but arguably premature to jump into those details just yet without even deciding we want the minimap to move or where.

To check for 'greatly' increased, here is an example of what we would be looking at:

[Cernel]

@LaFayette said in Moving MiniMap to bottom of Action Panel:

• I'm not sure if the minimap really needs to move

The more I think about it, the more I get convinced the current position is preferable.

• There seems to be some compelling reasons to have it not be bottom right.

I don't see any real benefits from having it bottom right instead of upper right, and, so far, unless I've missed something, the only argument in favour of that has been from @redrum said in Moving MiniMap to bottom of Action Panel:

I agree with moving the minimap to the bottom right. I think its more natural there and most other strategy games have it there so easier for players to get used to the TripleA UI.

So just a personal preference and personal opinion on what "most other strategy games" do.

• It's an open question on how we would place elements exactly.

Hard to have a clear opinion until all is exactly defined, as details can make a huge difference.

• I don't think it'd be wise to ever have the minimap be hidden unless the user explicitly does so. I don't think I implied otherwise.

Ok, if the minimap would be anywhere on the left side and always showing (at least as default) this would mean either the history always showing or the minimap showing alone, without being integrated inside a bar. I think the first case would cut out a whole bunch of board view with not much added value, but it has the benefit of compensating the presence of the right bar, having the centre of the board view closer (and possibly on) the centre of the screen, so here I'm fairly neutral, as I dislike reducing board view but I like the centre of the board view being closer to the centre of the screen (I'd prefer the two being the same). Regarding the second case, as I said, I "don't like the idea of showing the minimap somewhere without it being encompassed by a side bar, as I think the board view should always be rectangular".

[Frostion]

@LaFayette said in Moving MiniMap to bottom of Action Panel:

It would probably make sense for us to have a max size of the minimap, and potentially a min size as well.

I would say that a sensible standard minimap size could be between 233-290 px. Most, if not all, maps live up to this criteria. But what exactly is it that a min/max size should achieve? Should player not be able to manually drag/expand the right sidebar to become larger than this max size? Why?

The size of history/left sidebar defiantly should open up larger than it does now (150 px). Maybe 200-230 px is not unreasonable. I can’t see a big problem with this, as this sidebar only opens up when the player is not having his turn, or it is deliberately called up.

I must say that I am (obviously) not fond on the Minimap moving anywhere. I think it works very well where it is now. But I think there UI could benefit from a bunch of small adjustments and alterations. Let me show how I imagine improvements:

Notice that in this mockup…
• There is a 240 px Minimap example (10 or 11 buttons?)
• And a 287 px Minimap example.
• “Cancel” button is beside, not below “Done” button.
• Nice graphical lines below the Done/cancel button, encompassing the field containing the scroll up/down moves.
• The territory/unmoved unit scroller is here more compact than the current prerelease.
• “Notes” tab is missing as it has a button and would be a pop up window.
• Perhaps it would also be a good idea to remove and make buttons for the “Technologies”, “Resources” and maybe even “Players” tabs. The info in these tabs could (needs to?) be presented more nicely and clearly in a automatically sized window, just like the political information is presented. This would also free up space in the right side bar, ensuring one row tabs.