Proposed Map: Domination 1941
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Doc says the dogs are both in good health!!! So I'm in a great mood now! haha
I'll dive back in later tonight and try to start dialing stuff a little bit more.
Right now the baseline for this Domination 1941 map is literally twice as large at 16000 px, as the baseline was for Power of Politics 1914 (which was just under 8000 px wide.) The original Domination was only 7500 px wide.
I'm feeling like we can definitely accomplish a lot more now, and the Domination 1941 map is bound to be way less crowded than say NML, so that's good. But I still feel like some of those TTs in Europe are a bit tight even with the upscale. Some need to be collapsed into adjacent tiles I would think. Or redrawn to be more beefy. I mean right?
Who knows, maybe Hepps will come back at some point and want to re-use this new one for an upscale? I mean since it's got the 1 pixel lines, but at twice the scale for the World. Not sure there, but just in case I tried to preserve his work in the initial pass. Now that we've moved beyond it though, and clearly into the WW2 planning, I'd like to really delve in and start house cleaning.
Compared to the current Global map, this one is much larger, by like at least 33%. So we could conceivably take the standard default unit sizes for a game like Global up from 48 px or 54 px to something more like 75 px or even 100 px in those games. Do a new unit set that has quite a bit more detail and polish than we've been able to achieve thus far for the standard games. For something like V3, you could do truly massive units, and then when you scale back down to the actual play view (at say 50% or 25%), everything would look way cleaner. Or of course you could just use the regular units we have at 48/54, in which case we could fit many more unit's in a given G40 tiles, before we get spillover. Either way, we're in a much better position with the upscale.
Using this world projection to make a map for G40 will take much less time than trying to figure out all the TT deets for Domination 1941, so I'm starting with the harder nuts first, to get them cracked, because in know making it fit G40 or V3 will be way simpler once that's all done hehe.
For a general gameplan, I want to get Europe looking aces for 1941 and then move East from there to do the same in Central Asia and the Middle East, since they both need a lot of work.
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@black_elk said in Proposed Map: Domination 1941:
Doc says the dogs are both in good health!!!
:flexed_biceps: 
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@beelee Thanks man!
Ok this might help... It includes the divisions of the Global 1940 game, approximated to this projection. We can clean those up a bit, but least it gives us a way to visualize.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yp6ulpzggsvnphw/TripleA_4k_baseline_G40_example.png?dl=0
Obviously there is some weirdness on the official game board, trying to get all the labelling and such to match the geographical reality can be a bit tricky at times, especially where the Pacific and Europe boards meet. China is pretty weird on the official boards for example, but I tried to strike a compromise for the boundaries that would kinda reflect both, for familiarity. I can still refine it, of course, but I think this works for a rough example of the blocking. Perhaps it's easier to think of stuff in that frame, like what should be further subdivided and such, once we can kinda see what regular global would look like.
This is sort of what I'm aiming for though, when I said I wanted it harmonize with Global somehow hehe.
Basically the White lines above show the standard Boardgame divisions and the black lines show the subdivisions we've been kicking around.
Also here is a Global 1940 baseline at 16000 indexed up, with only G40 boundaries... in case anyone wants to play around with it, or start adding the sea zones and such, so we can try running it through utilities hehe. It just needs a crop probably in the Antarctic, or an ice sheet extension up north to make sure Siberia and such works as intended. I was gunning pretty hard and fast tonight, so might want to give it a double check lol.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2dayaogn6jhtg5y/TripleA_4k_Global_1940_baseline.png?dl=0
Best Elk
ps. for starters I would like to rework Poland, try to lift Romania and Bessarabia a bit. Larry had a kind of weird extension of Poland going on in G40, and Hepps also used some distortion in that region for WW1. But I think think we should maybe round it out a bit, so it doesn't look quite so stretched. Belo is always a pain in the ass, the way Larry had it connecting to Arch and such lol. But I think that could be dialed a bit now that we have a more realistic looking globe. Russia is always problematic. I think the best solution is probably to shift all the lines a bit to the right, just so they don't have to stretch quite some much to land their connections. Not as extreme as the Classic board of course, but Moscow could probably shift slightly to the right, and it would make all the surrounding TT shapes a little more recognizable probably. Not sure what's best, but I just wanted to block em so we could start thinking about it. But yeah, Poland needs some love. Since France was stretched, I think it makes sense to enlarge Poland, and perhaps lift Scandinavia to get a little more room in the Baltic SZ and the Baltic State. Like basically just lifting everything slightly, and then rounding it out to the right, in the ballpark. If that seems good to you guys? I'll try to refine it some more the next time I got a night free.
pps. Tibet is a little weird too. My theory is that Larry could not get a Map board printed in China that showed Tibet, so instead he just clipped the world by like 3 inches lol. What would the Beastie Boys say?! So I'm not sure what our best solution would be there. Essentially the Official board is drawn in such a way that makes that part of the map kinda wonky. I tried to land somewhere in between, but not sure if it vibes for you guys?
Catch ya next round!
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And there was me thinking how hard can it be to trace a map of earth foe WW2, answer very difficult.
@Black_Elk You will not please all the people, as so many compromises have to be made, so I appreciate your reworkings!
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@thedog For sure!
Yeah it's a trip. Basically what we're battling against is a kind of cartographic uncanny valley lol.
The more realistic the contours become, and the more recognizable the shapes (political map of Europe/the World, being very familiar to many people at a glance) the more one notices weird flaws. It's hard to describe how much stretch vs compression is happening, but it's pretty significant. Fortunately you can disguise that to a fair degree, provided you get the relative shapes into a rough balance. You'll note that everywhere in the Soviet Union has this sort of horizontal tendril thing going on right now. That's because of the way Larry labelled stuff. You know, by calling a TT Smolensk, and then it's like well how far does it have to stretch so that Smolensk will actually be inside that TT, rather than outside of it, while still connecting to some other named spot that's probably pretty far away heheh. At some point you kinda have to shift, but that's already happening even now, before the rewarp, so you don't want to push it too far. Otherwise all the sudden Moscow is further east than Baku, and like Cernel mentioned that feels super weird when stuff like that occurs. It only works in Classic/Revised because the map is so cartoonish and misshapen that you hold it to a lower standard. Here the world looks more like the world so we want it to maintain that illusion a bit more.
What I will likely end up doing is just redrawing all the Global 1940 tiles in the USSR and Eastern Europe until they don't bug me quite so much anymore. Then I'll return to the subdivisions afterwards, once I got something I like for those larger G40 divisions. Just seems more efficient at this point.
I do kind of enjoy the way that having smaller regions displayed kinda reinforces the larger divisions though. Like I think it just looks cool as a visual. I don't see why we couldn't leave those in place, even in the G40 map, just maybe knocked back in shade or opacity. Like they could still display to give that extra flavor even if it's purely decorative in the regular G40 game. But then when you load up Domination, all those decorative interior divisions become real divisions (actual new TTs). So that'd be like a way to lead the player naturally from one game into the next. You know, so they have a touchstone there for familiarity. Plus I just think it looks cool heheh
It takes a while, but I don't mind the noodling. I used to draw stuff like this with graphite, so I'm pretty used to it haha. I drew this one the very same year that TripleA came out I think - almost 20 years ago! lol Crazy
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@black_elk I just had a flashback looking at that lol
I'm back in 2022 now though
Edit
That should be on a Acid Rock Album Cover lol I guess they don't do albums anymore.I gotta quit looking at it. i get lost and each time is harder to get back lol
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@cernel Here is my not quite complete list of maps https://axisandallies.fandom.com/wiki/Category:TripleA_Maps.
TerraFirma is currently the largest playable map. It has some interesting ideas, but needs a lot of work to make it a good game.
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@rogercooper said in Proposed Map: Domination 1941:
@cernel Here is my not quite complete list of maps https://axisandallies.fandom.com/wiki/Category:TripleA_Maps.
TerraFirma is currently the largest playable map. It has some interesting ideas, but needs a lot of work to make it a good game.
Great table! How have you collected all that data? Have you actually opened every single XML file and counted land and sea zones separately?
By the way, as I said, I believe you can correct two things in that list regarding Terra Firma.
- The zones are 1515, not 1155 (which is what your table says).
- Despite the fact that the folder name is "TerraFirma1939", the map is certainly not set in 1939. Albeit the fact that Albania is Italian implies a 1939 or later date (but I assume this is merely a mistake like the British Rhodes), the much more important fact that all of Czechoslovakia is not German implies a 1938 or before starting date and the Chinese ownerships imply a 1937 or before starting date. Also on the account that Ethiopia is fully Italian controlled, I'd say I'm almost sure this is a 1937 game.
Why a 1937 game has a folder called "TerraFirma1939"? Maybe it was initially intended to be 1939 and the map-maker never corrected the name of the folder.
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Wow I'm having a hard time coming down from this. Super Impressive
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@Black_Elk
Is the dude riding the horse with a chefs hat, you? :winking_face_with_tongue: -
@thedog said in Proposed Map: Domination 1941:
@Black_Elk
Is the dude riding the horse with a chefs hat, you? :winking_face_with_tongue:ha hah good one ! I thought it was napolean or davinci lol :grinning_face_with_sweat: :grinning_face_with_sweat: :grinning_face_with_sweat:
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@beelee heheh it's Salvador Dali, riding David's Nightmare (from the famous painting of Napoleon). He's wearing the chefs hat, cause of that opening line in his memoir "The Secret Life" : "At age 6 I wanted to be a chef. At age 7 I wanted to be Napoleon!" hehe. Every face is master, they're all painters and draftsman, except for Nietzsche lol. I was pretty young, so it's a little sophomoric, but I still think it might be the best thing I ever drew hahah
OK so I just ponied up and posted my draft map design at A&A org...
https://www.axisandallies.org/forums/topic/39386/working-on-a-new-map-1940-41
I figure the gang there will probably hammer me with little to no mercy -on all the various points of accuracy and historical realism - so it seemed like a good stage for that, and to gather some constructive criticism.
I was a little reluctant to show it in this half complete state, since it's a WIP, but on the other hand, it's easier to fix stuff now, than if I wait until it's all totally dialed only to find out I goofed something major.
Fingers crossed! Hopefully they don't hate it with a burning passion lol. We'll see what they say, and then I'll bang it out next week, after it's had a few days to marinate. We'll gather sufficient critiques to move forward into the home stretch and then just dive headlong towards the finish line lol.
Best
Elk -
@cernel said in Proposed Map: Domination 1941:
@rogercooper said in Proposed Map: Domination 1941:
@cernel Here is my not quite complete list of maps https://axisandallies.fandom.com/wiki/Category:TripleA_Maps.
TerraFirma is currently the largest playable map. It has some interesting ideas, but needs a lot of work to make it a good game.
Great table! How have you collected all that data? Have you actually opened every single XML file and counted land and sea zones separately?
By the way, as I said, I believe you can correct two things in that list regarding Terra Firma.
- The zones are 1515, not 1155 (which is what your table says).
- Despite the fact that the folder name is "TerraFirma1939", the map is certainly not set in 1939. Albeit the fact that Albania is Italian implies a 1939 or later date (but I assume this is merely a mistake like the British Rhodes), the much more important fact that all of Czechoslovakia is not German implies a 1938 or before starting date and the Chinese ownerships imply a 1937 or before starting date. Also on the account that Ethiopia is fully Italian controlled, I'd say I'm almost sure this is a 1937 game.
Why a 1937 game has a folder called "TerraFirma1939"? Maybe it was initially intended to be 1939 and the map-maker never corrected the name of the folder.
Yes, I identified each unique map, opened the XML and counted the territories. I will fix the counts on TerraFirma.
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OK so I think I found a solution I like for Eastern Europe...
https://www.dropbox.com/s/yp6ulpzggsvnphw/TripleA_4k_baseline_G40_example.png?dl=0
Rather than shifting Moscow any further East, which I really didn't want to do, I instead I did a more vertical warp for this area. It runs a little counter to what's going on with Western Europe on the bend, but I think it still works.
Basically I got enough space from doing that for another dozen naval units in the Baltic SZ and a little more space for Norway, Baltic States and Leningrad too. I tried to make the area for sz 113 as large as I thought I could get away with too, before Scandinavia started looking too goofy. The space for sz 113 should be about 3 times as large as the current Global map now.
For the Belo to Arch conundrum, I got it set up so that the TT called Archangel OOB is essentially everything from Arch to include Tver and everything between, and then Belo includes the southern portion of Pskov, just to get the connection to land right. It's a little stretchy, but I think it works alright with the surrounding tiles reshaped a bit. Also shifted Romania a little was well and the pripet marshes zone, to bring it all back in relative alignment. Let me know if that works alright for you guys! hehe
Best Elk
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@black_elk said in Proposed Map: Domination 1941:
The space for sz 113 should be about 3 times as large as the current Global map now.
:beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes: :beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes: :beaming_face_with_smiling_eyes:
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Here is the all black lines view again for the subdivisions, with the new adjustments, just to see how it might read.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cfbiii4lb6ql261/TripleA_4k_baseline_G40_example_flags.png?dl=0
ps. And below is the 16000px map showing only the standard G40 divisions in a 3 color bitmap. Arctic ice sheet blanked back to blue there, just for the quick read, since it kinda needs to be in full color for the ice thing to look alright, in white it just makes Greenland and Canada etc look kinda funny heheh. Navy blue made that arctic line somewhat less noticeable. I'm a light blue Classic man myself, (I wish we could control the sz color preference in the mapview tab, or in the map properties to edit that as Hex like everything else, though that color choice is still kinda hardcoded into the baseline for Sea Zones I think right?) but anyhow, just for variety, thought I'd do it like that in dark blue for a sec. We'd just paintbucket back to white up there in the arctic when the time comes to run it through the utilities.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/dcrluqe7axymdm7/TripleA_4k_baseline_G40_example_navy.png?dl=0
Preview
Here's a quick vector pull
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehcnfkr28llq8gg/TripleA_4k_G40_vector.svg?dl=0
I'll let it ride for a few nights before giving it another pass. Catch ya in a few
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@black_elk
This might help, in Inkscape with your map loaded
File> Document Properties> Click the Resize to content: button
This will put a white paper background under your map
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@thedog Haha thanks dude! I was wondering what the hell was going on there lol. Here I updated the save in the dropbox file.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehcnfkr28llq8gg/TripleA_4k_G40_vector.svg?dl=0
Does that look right?
Then just trace bitmap from that right, at the desired width px? I had it clicked for anti-aliasing off, but like if one wanted something upscaled or downscaled, they could just have it draw the border at 1 px from here right, using some curves to punch it up after? Feel free to play around if you got ideas for sprucing it up svg. This is glorious! I'm stoked off playing around with it!
You guys think the TT borders are working for the G40 divisions, enough room going down for standard play I'd think right? Or do we need to beef anything else up there?
Right now I'm just chasing down some rogue floating pixels from where I redrew the borders. I'll show you guys where I'm at for the working one. Basically I got the land Gray in that one. Made it easier for me to see where the line slipped to 2 pixels in a couple spots. But I think it's basically dialed for G40 here, unless I missed something, or you guys want to change the TT shapes further.
I posted those at A&A org to try and drum up some interest in the whole idea. Now would prob be a good time to start thinking about sea zones I guess, since we're just about there I think right?
For SZ I was thinking maybe we start with G40 and then just start splitting the tiles in 2. Like there are some areas, like the Baltic where it'd be better not to cut it too close in coastal zones, whereas in the large areas we could try to get something going for convoys and the more cat and mouse chase maybe? Not sure I haven't really put a ton of thought into how the Global naval game be dialed into high gear with the map design there, or at least not as much thought as the ground game. But I bet it would help to figure out how we want to do with the land divisions to start blocking in the sz.
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OK so I want to make a shot call here on the Sea Zone geometry, but I want to explain the rationale too.
First I think we should try to design the G40 sz divisions in a way that avoids angles, at least wherever possible. The reason is two-fold, because angles tend up/downscale poorly in tripleA (they'll be the first lines to disappear), but also because of the unit housing aspect. If unit's have to break across a 45% angle for example, there is more likely to be clipping in the centers. So that's my thought there. If we can get away with it, to try and avoid any angles, and simply use boxes, like rectangles, L, and Gamma for the tiles.
In some respects this perhaps not as interesting graphically/design-wise as a map with SZ tiles that uses angles, but functionally we'll be better off probably the way the game works.
I think we can still try to achieve something cool looking though. With some scale and splitting in thirds or things like that.
Or an alternative would be to have one side of the board Atlantic be more straight angles, and the Pacific side including some right angles, since that's more traditional on the Pacific side of the map. Also almost necessary there, with spaces like Malaya/Sumatra and whatnot. So when we get over there we can revaluate. I tried to confine it just to that one spot that really seemed to benefit which was the Baltic corresponding to sz 114. Also just like circles on land, angles and circles can be added later pretty easily once stuff is blocked in.
So anyway, that's what I'm thinking, but wanted to see if others would sign off on the gameplan before I get too far along.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6wdj4i1rcka8y99/TripleA_4k_baseline_G40_subdivisions_sz.png?dl=0
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Here is a quick detail with some example units, just give a sense of the scale.
I think we could easily develop a more advanced naval game with extra convoys or more sz divisions at the subdivided level. Perhaps not for sz 113 hehe, but you know, some of the other spots around the gameboard. You could fit some pretty large fleets I'd think at 16000.
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