Middle Earth: Battle For Arda - Official Thread
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@alkexr I actually don't think they are that overpowered and given that they require lots of fodder units to be useful, you end up with kind of a cap on how many you would ever want to build anyways (essentially can't spam them). I think making them a bit overpowered is better than underpowered to ensure they are getting built especially during the balancing phase for the map.
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@redrum The goal would be to make the dumb "cheapest fodder + balrog" combo not viable, because then all the other units won't get built. The preferred combo is "fodder + stronger units + 1-2 leaders for bonus only".
The reason why this worked was that more than 50% of the total combat effect of the units was raw power, and only the smaller part was the bonus, and so they were worth buying even above the soft cap you mentioned, to the extent that they could efficiently provide all the power an army needs, without other "power-units". The change was to make raw power less significant, and so (hopefully) they are only worth buying for the leadership / terror now.
Changes:
- wizard: att/def 6 (x2) -> 5 (x2), 12 lead -> 20 lead, cost 14 -> 20
- balrog: att/def 7 (x3) -> 6 (x3), 8 lead+terr -> 12 lead+terr, cost 33 -> 40
- nazgul: att/def 7 -> 6, 6 lead, 12 terr -> 8 lead, 16 terr, cost 15 -> 18
I don't think they are too expensive, they give around ~1.5 power per PU, compared to ~0.5 power per PU for fodder, or ~1 pppu for average strong units, and they survive many battle rounds. But tell me how much you'd be willing to pay for them.
(Making them stronger overall also has the added benefit of making games with "Unlimited Unique Units" off more interesting.)
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@alkexr I guess I'm not 100% following how that makes "cheapest fodder + balrog" combo not viable? Is the reasoning that you still need more attack/defense power then that would give?
I also worry that since the 'unique units' have AA vs each other that if you make them more expensive that battles will be very random. Essentially come down to whoever loses a 'unique unit' to AA is gonna lose cause of the huge power drop.
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@redrum said in Middle Earth: The Battle For Arda - official thread:
I guess I'm not 100% following how that makes "cheapest fodder + balrog" combo not viable? Is the reasoning that you still need more attack/defense power then that would give?
The combo was buying a wizard per 6-7 fodder, because one wizard per 12 fodder is not enough power. Now buying a wizard per 6-7 fodder was made less efficient (less raw power, more cost, increase in leadership irrelevant), while buying a wizard per 20 (12) units is at least as efficient as it was (at least that's the intention).
I also worry that since the 'unique units' have AA vs each other that if you make them more expensive that battles will be very random. Essentially come down to whoever loses a 'unique unit' to AA is gonna lose cause of the huge power drop.
I could recite the cached wisdom that a good strategy needs to be prepared for randomness, but that'd probably not be very helpful
I don't think it's that big of a problem, because realistically it will only happen if the Orcs send a balrog to Rivendell, or between the Woodland Realm and Dol Guldur. I would be much more worried about siege, it's much more common and can also cause huge swings. -
@alkexr Ok, that's what I thought. I see your point. Given the complexity of the unit set, its really hard to tell without playing some games. Only the battlefield can truly decide!
And don't worry I'm a dice player at heart so I get the preparing for randomness but there is also some point where things are so random that it can really be planned for. Not saying that is necessarily the case here but just wanted to point that out.
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@alkexr
Against Mordor the Gondor player must spam Rangers. It is easy for Mordor to pick a weak Gondor area low in archers and crush it. The winged nazgul will typically add an extra +6 power to the Atk and remove up to 12 power from the enemy. Then they will fly away to the rear, to do the same again next turn. The Mordor player always has the choice to commit the winged nazgul or not.The winged nazgul did share similar stats with their land nazgul, perhaps it is worth another look at the winged nazgul?
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@thedog Against Mordor the Gondor player must spam tower guards and pray that the balance is good enough that West Osgiliath won't fall. Otherwise... well, good luck.
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BFA is up and downloadable from the official map repository.
@redrum I won't be available for most of the weekend, but otherwise I'm ready to start. Take your time getting familiar with the game, if you'd like. Choose a side and map options. Also choose a pre-release version that's relatively stable, I'll download that one.
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@alkexr Awesome! I'd prefer to try Good out first since I haven't played around with the map much and think its a bit easier to learn the reactive side. I'd say let's do all default settings except do LL. The recent pre-releases should all work fine and I'm gonna go with https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/releases/tag/1.9.0.0.11665.
If you send me your dice email (you need to register an email at https://dice.tripleawarclub.org) then I can set up the forum thread and game. Then we can just play turns as we have time. No big rush or anything.
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hi,
i just wanted to start BFA local and got following error. May be it matters that i am mac user.
cheers, epi
TripleA engine version 1.9.0.0.10663
Loading map: large_middle_earth, from: /Users/christianbouillon/triplea/downloadedMaps/large_middle_earth-master.zip
Loading resources from the following paths: [/Users/christianbouillon/triplea/downloadedMaps/large_middle_earth-master.zip, /Applications/TripleA.app/Contents/java/app/assets]
Loading map: large_middle_earth, from: /Users/christianbouillon/triplea/downloadedMaps/large_middle_earth-master.zip
Loading resources from the following paths: [/Users/christianbouillon/triplea/downloadedMaps/large_middle_earth-master.zip, /Applications/TripleA.app/Contents/java/app/assets]
Failed to start game
java.lang.IllegalStateException: No data of type centers for territory: Thorin's Halls
No data of type centers for territory: D谩in's Halls
No data of type centers for territory: West Wilderland
No data of type centers for territory: North Lindon
No data of type centers for territory: South Lindon
No data of type centers for territory: Lh没n West Bank
No data of type centers for territory: Lh没n East Bank
No data of type centers for territory: North-South Road
No data of type centers for territory: Nan Curun铆r
No data of type centers for territory: Henneth Ann没n
No data of type centers for territory: Tolfalas
No data of type centers for territory: West Osgiliath
No data of type centers for territory: East Osgiliath
No data of type centers for territory: White Mountains
No data of type centers for territory: Dor-en-Ernil
No data of type centers for territory: Ringl贸
No data of type centers for territory: Ringl贸 Vale
No data of type centers for territory: An贸rien
No data of type centers for territory: West Ephel D煤ath
No data of type centers for territory: Ephel D煤ath
No data of type centers for territory: Ud没n
No data of type centers for territory: Mountains of Shadow
No data of type centers for territory: Barad-d没r
No data of type centers for territory: East Ephel D煤ath
No data of type centers for territory: Ash Mountains
No data of type centers for territory: South L贸rien
No data of type centers for territory: North L贸rien
No data of type centers for territory: Beorn's Hall
No data of type centers for territory: Lands of the 脡oth茅od
No data of type centers for territory: North Wilderland
No data of type centers for territory: Hithaeglir
No data of type centers for territory: Ann煤minas
No data of type centers for territory: Hoarwell Bank
No data of type centers for territory: Mitheithel Bank
No data of type centers for territory: Amon S没l
No data of type centers for territory: Carn D没m
No data of type centers for territory: Rh没n
No data of type centers for territory: South Rh没n
No data of type centers for territory: Mountains of Rh没n
No data of type centers for territory: Eryn Galen
No data of type centers for territory: Greenwood the Great
No data of type centers for territory: Ost-in-Edhil
No data of type centers for territory: North Rh没n
No data of type centers for territory: Little Lh没n
No data of type centers for territory: Lh没n
No data of type centers for territory: sz Bay of Tolfalas
No data of type centers for territory: Langstrand
No data of type centers for territory: sz Sea of N煤rnen
No data of type centers for territory: Anfalas
No data of type centers for territory: Dr煤adan Forest
No data of type centers for territory: South Lh没n
No data of type centers for territory: sz Gulf of Lh没n
No data of type centers for territory: sz Lh没n
No data of type centers for territory: Dr煤waith Iaur
No data of type centers for territory: East-West Road
No data of type centers for territory: sz Sea of Rh没n
No data of type centers for territory: Lh没n Tributary
No data of type centers for territory: Halifirien
No data of type centers for territory: Amon D卯n
No data of type centers for territory: Firienholt
No data of type centers for territory: The Undeeps
No data of type centers for territory: South Misty Mountains
No data of type centers for territory: Eagle's Eyrie
No data of type centers for territory: Lands of the Lossoth
No data of type centers for territory: Northern Waste
No data of type centers for territory: South Forodwaith
No data of type centers for territory: Halls of Gr贸r
No data of type centers for territory: North Dale
No data of type centers for territory: East Dale
No data of type centers for territory: West Dale
No data of type centers for territory: River Running Bank
No data of type centers for territory: Carnen West Bank
No data of type centers for territory: Northeast Rh没n
No data of type centers for territory: Carnen East Bank
No data of type centers for territory: Celduin North Bank
No data of type centers for territory: North Rhovanion
No data of type centers for territory: River Running South Bank
No data of type centers for territory: Realm of Vidugavia
No data of type centers for territory: East Wilderland
No data of type centers for territory: Kingdom of Rhovanion
No data of type centers for territory: South Rhovanion
No data of type centers for territory: Celduin South Bank
No data of type centers for territory: West Rh没n
No data of type centers for territory: South Wilderland
No data of type centers for territory: Sea of Rh没n Coast
No data of type centers for territory: Southeast Rh没n
No data of type centers for territory: Grey Mountains
No data of type centers for territory: West Grey Mountains
No data of type centers for territory: Glittering Caves
No data of type centers for territory: Harrowdale
No data of type centers for territory: Folde
No data of type centers for territory: Fenmark
at games.strategy.triplea.ui.mapdata.MapData.verifyKeys(MapData.java:564)
at games.strategy.triplea.ui.mapdata.MapData.verify(MapData.java:539)
at games.strategy.triplea.ui.TripleAFrame.create(TripleAFrame.java:227)
at games.strategy.triplea.TripleA.startGame(TripleA.java:126)
at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.launcher.LocalLauncher.loadGame(LocalLauncher.java:54)
at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.launcher.LocalLauncher.launchInNewThread(LocalLauncher.java:34)
at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.launcher.AbstractLauncher.lambda$launch$0(AbstractLauncher.java:51)
at java.lang.Thread.run(Thread.java:748) -
@epinikion The error is indicating that your large_middle_earth-master.zip is missing some files, nothing to do with the new map. Can you try deleting it from your maps folder?
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@epinikion Let me guess what you did. You have the old "Large Middle Earth - Third Age All Stars" downloaded. You also downloaded and manually installed a version 2.0.4 or earlier of the map, and now you downloaded BFA from whithin the game. Then you tried to start a game named "Large Middle Earth: The Battle For Arda" or "Middle Earth: The Battle For Arda".
If this is the case, then try starting the game named "Middle Earth: Battle for Arda". I also suggest that you delete the one you installed manually, although it's technically not necessary.
If you haven't downloaded it from the game, then do so, and then try starting "Middle Earth: Battle for Arda".
Hope this helps.
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thanks guys, after redrums post i thougth it would be a nice idea to reinstall triplea and all is fine now. so i play my first game against the hard ai now. i give him good and +30% income all game. i think i can help balancing the game later. also interested in any online or pbem game.
i am really sure we have the best triplea-map here and i played almost all maps. i am sure i can help balancing later.
epi
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@epinikion Sounds good. If you notice any particularly bad behaviors from the Hard AI let me know. I haven't really tested it yet on this map. I know one thing it will do poorly is purchases as it doesn't quite understand the complex unit set with all the support and AA type attacks. But hopefully combat/non-combat moves it does ok.
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hi redrum,
well yes hard ai is one thing. the main problem is ofc that he does not go for the main important terrs. Gondor needs to close osgiliath heavy as long as possible. also i guess a really important ai problem is: calcing the reattacks. its not enough to win a battle. even when you gain 30+ TUV . when you loose 50 o r more in reattack its a bad deal. probably hard to explain to a machine
best, epi
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hi alkexr,
you think you can add description of unit abilities? I mean when you purchase you should know what unit is mountainwalker what is cave dweller and so on.
best, epi
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@epinikion If there are abilities like "cave dweller", that means you are playing Large Middle Earth; not the Battle for Arda. In that case, there is a smaller table near the start of the game notes explaining what every ability means.
In BFA, you should read the game notes, it should mention every single ability, although there is no quick reference to check (yet).
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hey alkexr,
a) i am playing bfa. cave dweller was obvious a bad example bc its lme, but the ability for mountainwalk is also in bfa. i see the notes and i find a description about all those kind of abilities. but how do i know what unit has what abilities/preferences? Its also not in the unit help.
example: i know that the warg_scout has mountaineer ability, while the ward_rides hasnt. Where do i find this in the notes?b) invisible units: I am not sure if i like, that i cant see my own units. it happens really often to me that i forget them (builded last round, placed in city. forget them as invisible).
thx again,
epi
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@epinikion said in Middle Earth: Battle For Arda - Official Thread:
a) but how do i know what unit has what abilities/preferences? Its also not in the unit help.
example: i know that the warg_scout has mountaineer ability, while the ward_rides hasnt. Where do i find this in the notes?There is no unit table in the game notes yet. But I think I know what the problem is. You are using a pre-release without the improved tooltips. Download a more recent pre-release (11000+), and everything should be displayed both in the "Unit help" menu and in the tooltips.
b) invisible units: I am not sure if i like, that i cant see my own units. it happens really often to me that i forget them (builded last round, placed in city. forget them as invisible).
Look at the very upper left corner of the map. If you see your units there, that means this problem too will be solved with a newer pre-release.
https://github.com/triplea-game/triplea/releases/tag/1.9.0.0.11665
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so how's the balance looking on this? I see quite a few changes since last I tried the map.
gonna tinker with it a bit this weekend.
