[Fixed] Global 1940 Declaration of war and loading of transports

Cernel

@seancb For clarity, I suggest editing "load transports that just became hostile" to "load your transports in sea zones that just became hostile".

beelee

@Cernel how to write specifically would probably be good : )

Cernel

@beelee said in Global 1940 Declaration of war and loading of transports:

@seancb you need to add and activate "Units Can Load In Hostile Sea Zone" to "Map Options"

That would allow always to do that, also for loading in hostile sea zones because of enemy placement in a previous turn, also for loading in hostile sea zones during non combat movement, also for loading after moving into a hostile sea zone.

However, it may be actually good to change to this behaviour, so that, instead of being unable to do something you should be able to, you are able to do something you shouldn't be able to, which is generally better, as you just need to autolimit yourself, to enforce the correct game rules, as opposed to having to edit or being unable to.

But this would be up to this game's players and the repository admins. Obviously, the best for the specific game would be to implement the actual game's rules.

Meanwhile, someone that is into this map may want to update its game notes, so to assure nobody alphabetized exploits this limitation.

@redrum @RoiEX @LaFayette @ssoloff Is this a bug report or a feature request? Just wondering.

ssoloff

@Cernel Just my $0.02 (and probably only a penny compared to what the other dev opinions may be on this ), it sounds like what you're proposing would be best discussed in the forum first as a feature request. It doesn't sound like an obvious bug, but a possible improvement for how an existing map option is implemented. The reason I suggest discussing it on the forum is that there may be other players or map makers who don't believe the new implementation would be better than the current one.

Panther

@ssoloff @Cernel My opinion (maybe only half a penny ) is that rules violations are bugs. So features are whatever leaves the fundament of the rules and enhances the experience on everybody's maps.

ssoloff

@Panther Totally agree. My knowledge of the area under discussion is pretty minimal, so I assumed from @Cernel's description that it was an opinion of how something should be implemented rather than a fact. In my view, the former should go through the forum while the latter can be immediately opened on GitHub. Apologies for my misunderstanding of this issue.

seancb

people are aware of the rule and some don't wish to play by the actual rules so if the bug could be fixed rather than let a few scoundrels continue to exploit it would be easier.

seancb

this is a bug request.

Cernel

@ssoloff My question (merely curious; but in case we would have to move the topic) was if this is a bug report or a feature request relatively to what at the first/main post of this topic, not at all relatively to whatever I said myself on it.

seancb

any tread on this?

redrum

@Panther Can you confirm this is a bug on Europe/Pacific/Global 40? If so then this is my understanding of what would need to change:

Units can load into transports in sea zones that just become hostile due to a declaration of war this turn. So essentially ignore any ships that just became hostile due to a declaration of war this turn when checking if a transport can be loaded.

Given that the only A&A and popular map that uses politics is Global 40, making this change shouldn't negatively impact any other maps.

Panther

@redrum The rulebook (for example Pacific 1940.2, page 11) says:

...
During your Combat Move phase in which you entered into a
state of war, your transports that are already in sea
zones that have just become hostile may be loaded
in those sea zones (but not in other hostile sea
zones). In effect, transports may be loaded in their
initial sea zones for amphibious assaults before war
is declared, while the sea zone is still friendly.
...

I have attached a savegame (1.10) that shows a respective scenario.
0_1545208448513_dowloadtransport.tsvg
On UK 1 UK moves a ship into SZ 20 to share that (not hostile) seazone with a Japanese Transport.
On Jap 2 Japan declares war on UK. Seazone 20 immediately becomes hostile. Now Japan should be allowed to load the transport in SZ 20 and perform a Combat Move.
Here TripleA handles it correctly.

Maybe you can provide a savegame, @seancb, including the scenario that occurred to you?

(Edit: Here is the savegame (same result) for the latest 1.9-stable: 0_1545208873850_dowloadtransport_1_9.tsvg )

Cernel

@Panther Oh, then this should be documented in pos2, once sorted out. It's an exception you would not expect, since anything else works as hostile since immediately.

I would actually like if you could move trough newly declared enemy powers' units, like ships not blocking at all, and for the land territories too being able to move past some new hostile, to attack something past it, if you went directly from a relationship allowing moving into territories to one of war, as this would make the most sense (like at Pearl Harbour the Japanese declaring at the last hour, and actually after that!), practically allowing all the cases of anything blocking anything to be ignored on that first turn, but I see this would not comply with the intended ruleset, that makes an exception for loading only.

Btw, I cannot load your savegame. I get:

Error loading game file: C:\Users\001\Desktop\1545208450847-dowloadtransport.tsvg, Incompatible engine versions. We are: 1.9 . Trying to load game created with: 0.0
To download the latest version of TripleA, Please visit http://www.triplea-game.org/download/
java.io.IOException: Incompatible engine versions. We are: 1.9 . Trying to load game created with: 0.0
To download the latest version of TripleA, Please visit http://www.triplea-game.org/download/
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.GameDataManager.loadGame(GameDataManager.java:92)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.GameDataManager.loadGame(GameDataManager.java:58)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.mc.GameSelectorModel.load(GameSelectorModel.java:81)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.startup.ui.panels.main.game.selector.GameSelectorPanel.lambda$selectSavedGameFile$4(GameSelectorPanel.java:258)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.ui.background.BackgroundTaskRunner.lambda$runInBackground$0(BackgroundTaskRunner.java:50)
	at games.strategy.engine.framework.ui.background.BackgroundTaskRunner$1.doInBackground(BackgroundTaskRunner.java:121)
	at javax.swing.SwingWorker$1.call(Unknown Source)
	at java.util.concurrent.FutureTask.run(Unknown Source)
	at javax.swing.SwingWorker.run(Unknown Source)
	at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor.runWorker(Unknown Source)
	at java.util.concurrent.ThreadPoolExecutor$Worker.run(Unknown Source)
	at java.lang.Thread.run(Unknown Source)

@redrum While I personally dislike having the politics done this way, Veqryn packed all political actions at start round (instead of one's turn's phase) (no really idea why; maybe to be faster?), in the Napoleonic FFAs, so I guess matter would be to check that such stuff doesn't behave differently for the first player that goes, with respect to all following ones. I guess this rule should not apply for anyone if the phases are bundled at start round for everyone, or should it? Should the OttomanEmpire be able to load ships if it declared on someone before that one's turn, and what about France, that is the first to go? Main reference would be "Napoleonic Empires: FFA 8 Player" (a few years since I saw anyone playing it, or trying to, actually).

Panther

@Cernel The first savegame I uploaded is for TripleA 1.10. For engine version 1.9 please use the second one at the bottom of the post. The error message shows that you tried to load the 1.10 savegame into the 1.9 engine.

beelee

@Panther 1.10

I feel we're going back in time, yet progressing somehow. : )

Sorry, just watched some Star Trek : )

crockett36

Dear Renegade or other future owner,

Please fix this rule. It doesn’t pass the sniff test. Hostile sea zones are…hostile. Not conducive for loading supplies or personnel onto boats.

Much appreciated,

Crockett

beelee

@crockett36

heh heh was just thinking about you Was gonna do a chat and say hi

yea Idk haven't seen any Renegade action here. Maybe you thinking the A&A site?

Hope all is well

Peace Out

Edit
If triplea isn't rule compliant, it is up to the players to play by the rules.

crockett36

@beelee

Well, I assume a diligent renegade researcher wouldn't leave this site out of his study.