Map Tags for release 2.6
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@zlefin said in Map Tags for release 2.6:
The most pertinent part about it isn't how well the ai plays in general, but whether the map has features the ai doesn't know how to handle/doesn't support
I disagree with you. The AI does not know how to handle National Objectives, Political Options or Victory Cities but it can play reasonably well in scenarios that use them. The important question is whether you can play an interesting game by playing 1 or more powers against the AI.
Most scenarios can be handled by the current AI. A "No AI" tag would be useful warning for those which can't be.
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I have done a spreadsheet with the 127 maps and have the following proposed changes, ready for entry into the Toolbox Window.
Note
- Napoleonic and ACW have 3 maps between them, we could merge them and call them, Colonial or maybe Napoleonic/ACW ?
- WW2-Alternate is new and is a catch all for WW2 maps with a difference like the Hex maps and non earth time line maps and sandbox style mini maps.
- Contemporary now starts in 1946, as the Contemporary would have had only 3 maps, but now has 5.
- Although WW2-Global has 37 maps these can filtered again using the Star Rating or other Tags to reduce the number.
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Popular Tag
For me it is a requirement, as I still class myself as a new player. When people say look in the lobby to see what is popular, below is what is popular, but these are the scenario/xml names, not the maps to download names. So for this reason new players need a Tag showing them which Maps are popular to download.Below is a lobby list from a few days ago;
Big World 2: Balance of Power
Domination 1914 No Man's land x5 players
Great War x2
New World Order
Ozteas 1941 Global
The Rising Sun - vXXX
World at War
World War II 1940 2nd Edition x2
World War II Global 1940 Balanced Mod3 with Combat Move First x3
World War II v3 1941 Balanced Mod
World War II RevisedCurrently there are 7 Popular Tagged maps.
For reference, Cernel has a post from 2017 with very similar scenario names, so they have not changed much in 4 years.
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/36/start-of-a-new-v3-anniversary-tourney/48 -
AI Rating Tag
Is Intended for single player v all AI players.
None - not rated
1 Does not play well using the AI or AI plays too slow
2 AI plays OK, using Fast or Hard AI
3 AI plays fast, using Hard AIThe above is vital for new players to get to grips with TripleA, however this Tag is a bit subjective and worse it really needs to be at the scenario/xml level not the map download level (as we are discussing now). One map has 6 scenario/xml, so should have 6 AI Tag rating.
Having said the above I think the AI Tag still has value and will aid single players, I have already AI rated 41 of the maps, so about 1/3.
Although this Tag is aimed at single player v AI, this is still useful to multi human player games taking the major nations with the AI playing minor/neutrals.
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Scrap both of these ideas
BGB Tag (Board Game Based)
Historical Tag
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Star Rating Tag
Has not changed and could be ported over to the new Tag system, with a few changes.
Listed here from the 1st post
None - Not rated, newly uploaded, waiting to be rated by the map/mod team using the map toolbox. If it does not load or errors, it will be removed after say 1 month if not improved?
1 Experimental needs work to be playable/acceptable
2 Good...................Game play is Good and is reasonably balanced
3 Excellent...........Game play is Excellent and is well balanced and has good graphics/sound -
Putting it all together in one post.
A newly uploaded map after 1 month will have a Star Rating and Era Tag.Star Rating Tag
None - Not rated, newly uploaded, waiting to be rated by the map/mod team using the map toolbox. If it does not load or errors, it will be removed after say 1 month if not improved?
1 Experimental needs work to be playable/acceptable
2 Good...................Game play is Good and is reasonably balanced
3 Excellent...........Game play is Excellent and is well balanced and has good
graphics/sound
.Era Tag (the years are a guide)
None = not rated
Fantasy
Ancient-Medieval......pre 1450
Renaissance.................1451-1790
Napoleonic...................1791-1860
American Civil War...1861-1900
WW1..............................1901-1930
WW2-Alternate.........1931-1945
WW2-Europe.............1931-1945
WW2-Global...............1931-1945
WW2-Pacific...............1931-1945
Contemporary...........1946-2040
Future.............................2041+
.Popular Tag
None..... = Not rated or not popular
Popular = Is played often in the lobby or forum or downloaded lots over a year
.AI Rating Tag
Intended for single player v all AI players.
None - not rated
1 Does not play well using the AI or AI plays too slow
2 AI plays OK, using Fast or Hard AI
3 AI plays fast, using Hard AI -
I'm still concerned about popular tag. Specifically it being arbitrary, potentially hard to break into for new maps, and the maintenance to keep it up.
Suggestion, what if we folded popular into star rating maybe? IE: '4', would mean ranking '3' plus popular.
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@lafayette
Another option could be to remove the Popular tag and just have a pinned post perhaps in Player Help.I would prefer the above option rather than modifying the Star Rating Tag.Edit: Actually I dont mind which option we go for.
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@thedog A pinned post I like, it'll be more obvious if it gets out of date and does not commit us to maintaining the tag ad-infinitum.
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I don't think everyone will understand the meaning upon seeing acronyms like "ECW" and "ACW" (respectively for 1451-1790 and 1861-1900).
I understand it is important to keep it short, but I question how much such acronyms are popularly known. I tend to think that acronyms should be used only if they are known to virtually everyone (like "USA" instead of "United States of America").
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@cernel
Thanks, edited the above post, removed ECW and expanded ACW.Renaissance.................1451-1790
American Civil War...1861-1900 -
I noticed a couple of days ago that LaFayette has been busy coding the use of map tags.
The first post contains the current thinking.
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/2801/map-tags-for-release-2-6?page=1Are there any more comments/suggestions?
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@lafayette @TheDog i dont understand the #3 rating for AI
"You should never have told me horses sleep standing up, it gave me a mental block." - Mister Ed
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@cernel American Civil War is a bit ethno-centric for 1861-1900, which had many other major wars. I would suggest for the nearly 1000 years between the Napoleonic Wars and WW1 using something like Wars of Empire, Imperial or Early Industrial.
I would also suggest 1946-1990 as Cold War.
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AI Rating Tag
Edited: Is Intended for single player v all AI players.
None - not rated
1 Does not play well using the AI or AI plays too slow
2 AI plays OK, using Fast or Hard AI
3 AI plays fast, using Hard AIOn older style maps, Fast AI is usually good enough, also Fast AI turns run faster than Hard AI turns.
What #3, rating is intended for is map/scenario that contains;
support attachments, expendable units or terrain effects (I might have missed some)
these require a Hard AI to get the best out of the map/scenario.Check Rogers Scenario thread, he makes a distinction between Hard and Fast AI.
An alternative to the ones listed above, AI rating could be;
Alternative AI Rating Tag
None = not rated
Dont = only play with Human players
Fast.. = can be played with Fast AI
Hard = should be be played with Hard AIWould this be better?
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@thedog you are saying there are some maps where the AI doesn't play any differently in fast or hard? that doesn't seem right to me.
my ratings for AI would be
1 incompatible (AI is not able to play this map effectively) example - TWW
2 passable (AI has some weaknesses on this map but can still put up a fight) example - G40
3 strong (AI is quite capable on this map) example - revised
not sure i agree that speed should even be a factor since AI will always go faster than a human and muddies the waters a bit in terms of the value of this rating
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@ubernaut
The AI rating is intended for new single players v AI.With your ratings how does a new player know which AI to use Fast or Hard?
Speed is very important for a single human player + AI verses the AI.
Seasoned/multi-players are expected to know what is best for their style of play.
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@thedog i don't think fast or hard should have anything to do with the rating the player can decide which is the best choice based on their own skill and/or patience level Hard AI still goes pretty fast even on complex maps, again much faster than a human would.
the rating should just be telling the player how effective the AI is at that map. even tho fast is quite a bit dumber now the basic kinds of problems AI has with maps is still basically the same (NOs, movement bonuses, sub/transports, complex builds).
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@rogercooper said in Map Tags for release 2.6:
@cernel American Civil War is a bit ethno-centric for 1861-1900, which had many other major wars. I would suggest for the nearly 1000 years between the Napoleonic Wars and WW1 using something like Wars of Empire, Imperial or Early Industrial.
Yeah, I agree (of course, you meant 100 years), and I don't like several of the naming proposals, either.
The correct name for 1451-1790 is "early modern".
A period like 1861-1900 is going to have 2 or 3 maps in total and would raise the issue wether or not "Domination" (an Anachronistic 20th century scenario based roughly on the years 1890-1914) is in it.
Maybe better to have 1451-1764 for the "early modern age" and then a single 1765-1869 section for the "revolutionary age" and then a single 1870-1928 section for "world war 1" (so that the Franco-Prussian war would be a World War 1 map too, for example).
I would also suggest 1946-1990 as Cold War.
Yeah, or "atomic age". Militarily, the few decades after World War 2 are basically the same as World War 2 plus the ICBM (beside the absence of horse-cavalry, which is missing in most WW2 maps too).
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@Cernel Im in broad agreement with your suggestions/conclusions.
So here is what Era/Age Tags mean;
Napoleonic and ACW now redefined as one, Revolutionary.
1946-2040 Nuclear (was Contemporary)
We use Nuclear and Atomic in common speech as the same thing, but here in the UK we use Nuclear more than Atomic?.
As Fast AI is only really used in maps that have lots of units and as hardware gets faster, Fast AI will fall out of use. For the purposes of Map Tags we should forget about Fast AI?See what @RogerCooper said
Fast AI is a lot faster when there are many units on the map. I often use it for large scenarios.
https://forums.triplea-game.org/topic/2920/if-the-fast-ai-was-removed-who-would-miss-it/9AI tag - could now look like this;
AI Rating Tag - Is Intended for single player v all AI players.
None - not rated
1 Does not play well or plays too slow
2 plays OK or well -
@thedog For the AI I would suggest.
- Satisfactory
- Hard only
- Unsatisfactory
It is possible that the tags might be need to be changed in the future. The biggest problem with the current AI being unable to run effectively on a given map is using multiple production resources, but that might change for some future version of the AI.
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