@Vendetta said:

@KurtGodel7 The coastal guns honestly sound like more more trouble than they're worth in order to get the balance right. Unless you think it'd be a really fun enhancement to the gameplay that you're determined to see through, it's probably safe to skip it and just give the invaders the round one penalty you have in mind.

Off the top of my head, the only major WWII warships I can recall being sunk by coastal forts were the cruisers Blücher and Königsberg during the invasion of Norway. Realistically, coastal defense batteries should be able to deter small raids, but not pose a serious threat on their own to a large invasion fleet.

But, suppose Britain builds a strong battleship fleet, and those battleships can exert more force than the coastal guns at a given hard point. Britain's response should be to unload one unit as an invasion. The goal would be to trigger a combat between the battleships and the coastal guns, with the British player knowing this would do more PU damage to Germany than to Britain.

If you want to avoid this kind of cheese, you might be able to turn the Coastal Battery into a building instead that doesn't get shot at in combat but does get captured if the province is taken. That would also be a natural way to put a one per zone limit on its placement. It could have AA style fire (1 die each at up to 3 ships, or however many targets you think is right).

If you think Claude can write some more complex rules, you could have the BBs take bombardment shots at the Coastal Battery first - if they score enough hits, they don't destroy it, but instead suppress it, and prevent it from firing. You could have the degree of suppression scaled to the number of hits it takes.

For instance, you've given the Coastal Battery shots at 4 targets by default. The British BBs arrive and bombard first - they score 2 hits, so now the Battery only takes 2 shots at enemy ships.

Making it a building also allows it to be a strategic bombing target, giving the enemy an alternative way to deal with it instead of just sending their ships in to slug it out head to head.

I agree that I should not add coastal guns. I'm at the point where I need to not add more complexity to the map. The sample games I've been playing flow smoothly, and are not bogged down by complexity.

If I did want to add more complexity--which I don't--but if I did, one way to achieve that would be the Battle of the Atlantic. The Battle of the Atlantic would exist as an abstraction. Each turn, Germany could send subs into the Battle of the Atlantic. Britain and America Atlantic could send destroyers in. Any units sent to the Battle of the Atlantic are there permanently. They cannot return to the main map. At the beginning of each game round, the German subs in the Battle of the Atlantic would fight the Allied destroyers. Combat would last for two rounds. Destroyed units would be removed from play. Any German subs that survived that combat would impose an economic penalty on Britain and America Atlantic. There would be a cap as to how much of a penalty each nation would receive. If, say, Britain's cap is 15 and America Atlantic's penalty cap is 20, then the first 15 PUs of economic damage done would hit Britain, and the next 20 Pus of economic damage would hit America Atlantic.

Later on, Germany gains the ability to have Type XXI U-boats as a special unit. Sending those to the Battle of the Atlantic would be very cool. Maybe each normal sub would impose a penalty of 2 PUs, and each Type XXI would impose a penalty of 5 PUs. Something like that.

But, I have no plans to actually implement this idea, because it would be added complexity.

America Atlantic's turn, round 7.

Note that the British and Atlantic Americans are exerting good pressure on Spain. Italy has turned Gibraltar into a hard point. The Gibraltar territory itself was too small for many unit stacks, so there is a box to the left of the Gibraltar territory to indicate its units. Note that Italy's units are defensive: trenches, heavy guns, a few infantry or conscripts. America Atlantic gets an income nerf. It receives 30% of its true income on round 3, 40% on round 4, and so forth, until eventually growing to 100% of its income.

The thing to note of this screen shot is that America Atlantic already has three factories in northwest Africa. Also it has discovered Industry tech. That means that each factory has +2 to its unit placement capacity, so long as the underlying territory is worth at least 2.

Over in Asia, things seem to have gotten a little stagnant. Japan has thoughts of breaking through in China or against the British, but both tasks are proving tougher than expected.

The source of Japan's problems in the north is the Soviet factory in Vladivostok. If Japan could crack that, it could conquer significant land area in the eastern Soviet Union. But that will be a tough nut to crack.

Japan has conquered most of the East Indies. It hopes this income will let it achieve a breakthrough on at least one of its fronts.

America Pacific has built a good fleet, and it has neutral farmed Mexico. Its neutral farming ambitions do not stop there. Next up: Honduras.

In the east, the German force in Gomel is locked with the Soviet force in Bryansk.

The Soviets had been neglecting their northern front a little. The Germans punished that by destroying the Soviet force at Tikhvin. The Soviets appear to be able to hold at Archangel.

Italy could envision itself as the proud new owner of Cairo. While the Italians have an offensive posture on that front, the British have been putting up a very good defense. Britain has been helped by industry tech (more unit placement) and recently gained Raj tech (3 free colonial militia per turn for India).

Japan has proudly built its first Yamato battleship! Also it built two SPCs. Each will produce a new fleet carrier every other turn.

Why are there random conscripts here? Because the Soviet Union unlocked Conscription 1 tech. Now, each Soviet factory produces 1 free conscript per turn, as long as the underlying territory is worth at least 9 PUs. This is good for five conscripts per turn. The Soviet Union would very much like to gain more techs in this category. It looks forward with eagerness to getting Conscription 4 tech--although that won't come for a long time. The Soviet player has prioritized the conscripts over getting free KV-1 tanks (although it would like to receive those also).

The Allies have opportunities to shift forces between the European and Pacific theaters. The Soviet Union decides how much to allocate to its eastern front. Britain decides how much to place on its factories in India, Africa, and Australia, versus how much to place in Britain itself. Units built in western India can be shipped west to fight Italy in Africa, or they can go east to fight Japan. Neutral farming is also a decision about front allocation. If America Pacific farms the Latin America neutrals, that is a decision to allocate more to the Pacific. If America Atlantic neutral farms them, that's a decision to go more heavy after Europe.

@KurtGodel7 The coastal guns honestly sound like more more trouble than they're worth in order to get the balance right. Unless you think it'd be a really fun enhancement to the gameplay that you're determined to see through, it's probably safe to skip it and just give the invaders the round one penalty you have in mind.

Off the top of my head, the only major WWII warships I can recall being sunk by coastal forts were the cruisers Blücher and Königsberg during the invasion of Norway. Realistically, coastal defense batteries should be able to deter small raids, but not pose a serious threat on their own to a large invasion fleet.

But, suppose Britain builds a strong battleship fleet, and those battleships can exert more force than the coastal guns at a given hard point. Britain's response should be to unload one unit as an invasion. The goal would be to trigger a combat between the battleships and the coastal guns, with the British player knowing this would do more PU damage to Germany than to Britain.

If you want to avoid this kind of cheese, you might be able to turn the Coastal Battery into a building instead that doesn't get shot at in combat but does get captured if the province is taken. That would also be a natural way to put a one per zone limit on its placement. It could have AA style fire (1 die each at up to 3 ships, or however many targets you think is right).

If you think Claude can write some more complex rules, you could have the BBs take bombardment shots at the Coastal Battery first - if they score enough hits, they don't destroy it, but instead suppress it, and prevent it from firing. You could have the degree of suppression scaled to the number of hits it takes.

For instance, you've given the Coastal Battery shots at 4 targets by default. The British BBs arrive and bombard first - they score 2 hits, so now the Battery only takes 2 shots at enemy ships.

Making it a building also allows it to be a strategic bombing target, giving the enemy an alternative way to deal with it instead of just sending their ships in to slug it out head to head.

@Vendetta said:

@Schulz

If I recall correctly, he doesn't have an actual Bunker unit, it's a Trench one that takes hits adds defense to other units, but it doesn't actually shoot.

Giving land units the ability to hit ships is something that has to be handled very carefully because of the cost ratios. If they can be built cheaper and spammed faster than warships, anti-ship defenses will end up becoming unassailable.

The only case in TRO where I decided to give a land unit a ship-hitting ability was Italy's Marines with a Decima MAS tech, where it's an offensive action they can only do on their turn, not an anti-invasion defense.

If you want to have any sort of coastal artillery unit that hits ships, it needs to be balanced by either high price, low hit probability, or a strict stacking limit per territory that allows fleets to outscale it.

The Europe map honestly looks pretty good at this point, I think it would probably be more productive to move on to improving other WIP areas since you're relying heavily on Claude usage.

In a recent test game, Britain had a large fleet of transports. Germany had four hard points to prevent invasion. Britain didn't need to overcome a hard point to invade: there were other places along the coast for it to unload its units.

But, let's say I introduced coastal guns, as well as the associated game mechanic. That creates a race between Germany and Britain. If Germany wins the race (that is, if its coastal guns are stronger than Britain's battleships), Britain will just unload/invade a territory that isn't a hard point. Problem solved. Germany just tied down a lot of PUs into coastal guns which could otherwise have been spent on its eastern front. But, suppose Britain builds a strong battleship fleet, and those battleships can exert more force than the coastal guns at a given hard point. Britain's response should be to unload one unit as an invasion. The goal would be to trigger a combat between the battleships and the coastal guns, with the British player knowing this would do more PU damage to Germany than to Britain.

To avoid this problem, some would say I should limit the number of battleships which can fire at coastal guns to the number of units actually invading. Drop off only one infantry? Only one battleship gets to fire at the coastal guns, but all the coastal guns get to fire at the battleships.

Suppose Britain has 10 battleships, and drops off 10 infantry. This triggers full combat between the battleships and the coastal guns. Germany loses some coastal guns, Britain doesn't lose any battleships. Then there is combat. The infantry don't get to fire on the first round (arriving amphibiously), and they won't survive until the second round. But, the battleships get to bombard. Assume those 10 battleships inflict 6 hits. Sticky hits, so those 6 hits kill 3 German trenches. At the cost of 10 infantry, Britain has taken away 3 trenches plus some coastal guns.

Don't get me wrong. All of this would be a cool thing to add to the game. I just don't know that the game needs any additional complexity at this point.